Robin Hood 1x09 Rewatch
Sep. 27th, 2009 11:33 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
roh_ficsWe're up to week 9! W00t! Feels like it was just yesterday when we started this rewatch!
I apologize for the EXTREME delay in getting this post up. I've been sick since Thursday, and all the medicated sleeping really cut into my rewatching and recapping time.
Anyway, for the discussion questions this week, we finally turn to Guy of Gisborne. You fangirls can do your happy dance now! ;)
I know he's been getting a lot of play in the commentary, so I'm going to try to limit myself to episode-specific questions about him:
1. How did Guy and Lambert become friends, esp. as Lambert appears to have a scientific education, and Guy has never shown much interest in any aspect of a classical education?
2. Did Gisborne anticipate the Sheriff would have less-than-noble uses for Lambert's invention, and keep that information from Lambert? Does he just assume that Lambert will just be happy with payment and principles be damned?
3. Marian seems rather pleased with the fact that Guy has friends. Discuss.
4. Did Gisborne really intend to save Lambert, or was he just sort of telling Marian what she needed to hear?
5. Why do Vaysey and Gisborne never attempt to get the ledger back from Robin Hood, after making an entire episode's worth of fuss over it?
My answers are scattered throughout this recap.
On to the episode…which I actually rather like, but mostly for lawyerly—and not fangirly—reasons.
It's interesting that this one jumps right into the plot. That doesn't usually happen on the show, or at least not in so obvious a way.
Black powder is fascinating, isn't it? Or it would be, if I knew what it was. Yes, this is about a show anachronism. I know I made some vague promise not to go on about those, but my promises on that score are like your local senator's promises on healthcare reform…they're more like suggestions. ;) I'll spare you the abject boredom by putting all the black powder-related info in a footnote. [1]
I love the individual reactions of each of the characters…Marian is intrigued, Guy is proud (and just a bit smug), and Vaysey is utterly bored (not to mention more than just a bit skeptical). Well, that’s all about to get blown to smithereens. (Horrible explosion-related pun totally intended).
I’m utterly fascinated by the wordless exchange between Gisborne and Vaysey right here, as Lambert explains how his invention can be used to make the miners job easier and reduce the risk to their lives. I have a sense that Gisborne and Vaysey have completely different plans for the black powder. The alternate explanation is that Gisborne is sincere in wanting the stuff as a blasting agent for the mines, and perhaps he’s just gloating in advance about how his plan is going to make the mine more productive when the Sheriff’s “guest worker” plan didn’t. Nah, that makes no sense. We know Gisborne is Teh Eebil! ;)
The Sheriff looks utterly gleeful, like a child at Christmas after he’s seen the stuff at work, doesn’t he?
Fortunately for him (or maybe unfortunately), Lambert is no idiot. He’s onto Vaysey (and possibly Gisborne), so he decides to put a few conditions on Sheriff’s acquisition of his intellectual property. He should have talked to me first about IP licensing and leverage though. ;)
Let’s see…Lambert wants (a) to make Vaysey a non-exclusive licensee, (b) royalties under the license agreement and (c) a field-of-use restriction, limiting his invention to non-weapon uses. These are all quite standard under most IP licensing agreements, so millions of win points to Lambert for being…oh, about 900 years ahead of his time. [2]
Does anyone (except Gisborne) ever respond in the affirmative to Vaysey saying “trust me?” Is there anything at all about his face that inspires trust? A clue…no.
I like this next bit, where Gisborne tells Lambert to think about what he’s doing. It’s both a threat and a warning…as if he’s trying to let Lambert the Sheriff is lethal when unhappy, without actually spelling it out for him. (If they’re friends though, surely this has come up in discussion before?)
Of course, Lambert predictably runs into the forest and into the arms of Robin Hood…who, naturally, isn’t at all interested in Lambert’s invention…only in saving hissoul life. *rolls eyes*
Oh, so Gisborne thinks he and Lambert already have an agreement and Lambert is in breach of contract! But Lambert thinks there never was a contract, and further accuses Gisborne of fraud, therefore negating Lambert’s duty to perform under the contract! This would make a fascinating hypothetical problem on a law school contracts exam. *geeks out*
Gisborne shows impressive legal knowledge in this next bit, noting that Lambert’s invention belongs equally to Gisborne, since Gisborne commissioned him. This is, of course, the “shop right” doctrine, so millions of win points to Gisborne for also being 900 years ahead of his time. [3] If Gisborne is right, he doesn’t actually need Lambert’s permission to use the invention in any way he wants. He doesn’t even need Lambert…he just needs the ledger. A thousand more win points to Gisborne for thinking strategically…and without the help of either Marian or Vaysey this time!
Ah, fail points to Lambert for not properly understanding how this whole “commission” thing works. Gisborne didn’t commission a portrait of a pretty woman, after all. The invention is useless to him, unless he can actually…er, use it. So why would he agree to an arrangement where his input ended with paying Lambert to make black powder? I realize the writers mean for us to sympathize with Lambert here, but I’m not seeing it. If I paid someone to make something for me…say, a cabinet, you can bet I’d be more than a little upset if the cabinet didn’t turn out quite the way I liked.
The smart thing for Lambert to do would have been to provide Gisborne with a duplicate ledger with a fake formula, and then abscond to another county (or heck, even another country) with the real ledger. By the time Vaysey and Gisborne find themselves another alchemist who will decode the fake ledger and make more black powder, Lambert will be long gone. Of course, then we’d have no episode…so never mind! ;)
I guess this is the show’s “responsible use of lethal power” segment, and I suspect this is another analogy to modern politics, but meh.
And…just like that, we’re back in the 12th century, where uncooperative scientists are subjected to the rack…rather than just, say, denial of tenure. That’s either good or bad, depending on your perspective. ;)
Nice shot of the outlaws in their lookout post just at the edge of the forest. It looks to me like Lambert ran maybe a hundred years at the most between Robin and Gisborne…so how is it that Gisborne never spots the outlaws here? Fail.
I sort of like AND hate the next scene with the gang discussing Lambert and the black powder. Bulleted list of win and fail points follows…
-- Win: Allan, with his gleeful explanation of how the Sheriff could take out a whole village for not paying taxes (I especially love how he makes the “boom” noise! Oh, Allan! :D)
-- Win: John, who doesn’t particularly care about the black powder, but really hates that Lambert punched him to the ground!
-- Win: Robin, for currently identifying the incendiary weapons used by the Saracens in the Holy Land as “Greek Fire”, even though he’s wrong to think black powder is the same as Greek Fire.
-- Fail (of massive proportions): Djaq, who (because of her training in science), should have realized Robin’s error, and correctly identified the black powder as NOT Greek Fire. Also, maybe because her patriotism is clouding her brain, she appears to have forgotten that the Saracens didn’t actually invent “Saracen Fire.” They just sort of acquired the knowledge by conquest.
-- Fail (of epic proportions): Will, who abandons his usual rational curiosity to make black powder seem “evil” rather than just “dangerous when in the wrong hands.” Also, he says it doesn’t require “wit” to use the black powder. Er, what? How would anyone know how much to use for a particular explosion, where to lay the charges, what a safe distance was, etc…if it required no wit to use it?
So someone needs to get arrested and taken to the dungeon. Now, is Robin actually asking for volunteers? Because I can see why this wouldn’t be the best of assignments for any of the outlaws. Also, does Much volunteer because he thinks everyone else will too? I mean, yes, he’s more than willing to help Robin, but why on Earth would Much, the one outlaw who seems determined to have a full belly and get a good night’s sleep, actually volunteer to get arrested? It makes no sense to me.
I also hate that everyone laughs when Much volunteers. They need to respect Much a little more…and Robin needs to lead by example. Treat Much Right! (Interesting side note…when all the others guffaw, Will just sort of has this angry expression on his face…he’s still thinking about the Greek Fire argument, I guess).
Anyway, in town, Much has apparently found Nottingham’s official free speech zone, because absolutely nobody tries to arrest him when he mouths off about the Sheriff. (Actually, I suspect Vaysey doesn’t care what people say about him, so he lets this sort of thing slide up to a point. The guards even have that “been there, done that” air to them).
But beat the crap out of a guard and you get arrested before you can say “assault and battery on a police officer!” I’m amused by how hard it is for Much to actually get arrested, the poor thing…and even more amused that Much remembers to thank the guards for hauling him off to the dungeons! :D
Huh…who knew Much could break himself out of his shackles with a file and all? Also, I like how Lambert doesn’t trust Much either. The words “Robin Hood” apparently don’t carry a lot of weight with educated non-peasant types. Or maybe Lambert’s just not from Nottingham?
I’m impressed that Gisborne at least tries to help Lambert, even if all he’s really doing is playing “good cop” to Vaysey’s “bad cop” (by refusing to torture Lambert at first). I’m even more impressed that Lambert apparently doesn’t fall for it. (More and more though, I’m just wondering about the circumstances under which these two became friends in the first place).
Of course, Gisborne’s leniency to his friends is nothing in the face of taunts from Vaysey re: Gisborne going soft…so naturally, Lambert’s days are numbered. *sigh* But in this case, Vaysey doesn’t even give Gisborne a chance to prove he can be less lenient. He just takes him right off the case! Wow…
This whole argument with Vaysey and Gisborne doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. Two episodes ago, the Sheriff had absolutely no qualms about hanging Robin Hood’s men…and in fact, he used the hanging to make a grand political point. So why would this make any difference? Wouldn’t hanging Much have pretty much the same effect as hanging Tom-A-Dale in 1x07 did? (Also, since Vaysey knows Robin has his own alchemist, wouldn’t it make more sense for the Sheriff to try to get Djaq in his evil little clutches again, instead of Much?) It’s weird to me how the Sheriff flits constantly between “destroy Hood” and “win hearts and minds.”
How come Will isn’t in the group of cloaked outlaws headed to town? (In fact, how come he’s constantly missing from these sort of scenes? Weirdness). Djaq looks really pretty in her cloak though, and I see that her sword belt is actually a holster! Cool. Allan making mean jokes about Much seems unfair though. Poor Much.
How does Vaysey know that food is the easiest way to persuade Much? Does he do a quick psych profile in his head? Or is it more that he just suspects all of Robin Hood’s men are probably starved for a good meal? Either way, “knowledge is power” is well at work in this episode.
I think it’s adorable how Much decides to sit back and enjoy the food, but is horrified the Sheriff would consider killing him before he can actually finish the feast! The look on Much’s face is classic…as is his attempt to bolt.
How does Vaysey know that Much was promised Bonchurch, and that this means a great deal to Much? Wasn’t that a conversation that only Robin and Much were privy to? This makes me wonder if Thornton (the servant at Locksley Manor, not Mr. Izzy of S3) has shared this information with Gisborne who then told the Sheriff about this in passing. Gisborne looks absolutely stunned at this revelation, which confirms my suspicion re: Thornton. (Or maybe Gisborne is just stunned because Bonchurch is technically part of his holding in Locksley?)
If Much had been even just a bit more sophisticated, he never would have fallen for this gag. For one, the Sheriff doesn’t speak all the solemn words required when you dub someone. For another, earldoms could only be inherited or acquired by marriage, or granted by the king, not by crown officials like the Sheriff. Not even Prince John could really grant it. Poor Much.
You would think that by now, Vaysey would have realized that torture isn’t very effective at producing the desired result. Tsk, tsk. I am a bit upset that Gisborne doesn’t seem more peeved that his friend is being tortured. He doesn’t even respond to Lambert’s cries at the end of the scene.
It’s an interesting point the Sheriff makes…about how money and power will convert someone like Much to their point of view. I suspect that’s true for most people, but Vaysey has no way of knowing that Much’s loyalty to Robin trumps all other emotions and desires. This is another instance of knowledge being power, isn’t it? As is Vaysey’s assertion that he has someone on the inside at Bonchurch. (Isn’t that a bit fortuitous though…that he already has a spy set up there, even though he has no way of knowing when (if ever) Much will get arrested?)
It’s interesting that Marian sort of gets the reason for Gisborne’s dismay wrong. She just assumes he’s upset about Lambert, but she doesn’t understand the reason is because Gisborne is feeling under-appreciated by Vaysey. Weird…she’s usually so on the ball where he’s concerned.
However, she makes up for it just a moment later by noting that Vaysey’s an endgame man. It’s a very astute observation, and it reinforces my view that Vaysey and Marian are the only two people on the show who actually “get” each other. (But, like all smart people, they’re also stupid enough to underestimate each other constantly).
She’s right though…all Gisborne needs to “win” with Vaysey is the ledger, and it also gives her a chance to get Gisborne to save Lambert. (I don’t think Gisborne appreciates what she’s really hinting at here…which is not just “save Lambert” but also “give me a reason to like you better.”) I think it’s the gesture of her hand on his shoulder that wins the day with Gisborne (and also clues Vaysey in to Marian’s involvement here. *sigh*)
Ah, okay…now we know where Will is. He’s at the sewer entrance, waiting. I guess he’s the gang’s official getaway guy…because, you know, a guy standing around a sewer with a huge axe strapped to his back blends right in. *rolls eyes*
Love Allan’s line on seeing Much all dressed up and riding in a carriage! “All bets are off!” How very Allan of him. ;)
Is it just me or is the lodge at Bonchurch nicer than Locksley Manor? Also, why are Much’s robes so outlandish? All the other nobles seem somewhat normally dressed?
Ok, so the gang decides to follow, and this time Will is with them…which makes me wonder how they managed to follow the carriage to Bonchurch and also alert Will (who is at the sewer, remember) that they were leaving? My head hurts now.
Ah, this is the infamous hand-on-shoulder Will/Djaq bit. I note there’s really no reason for the hand either. Will, you dog! ;)
Also, is it just me, or does Allan shoot Will a tiny bit of a dirty look, just before he speaks to Robin here? ROFL. Oh, OT3, how happy you make me! :D
(Also, Allan apparently knows 101 different ways to break into the castle!)
Oh, here she is now…the lovely Eve of Bonchurch. (I always call her that, even if that’s not quite her name). I wonder if she was expecting someone completely different than Much, because she seems a bit surprised when he gets out of the carriage, doesn’t she? Maybe she’s just thinking how nice Much looks when he’s not wearing that silly cap all the time…that’s what I’m thinking anyway! Also, I just noticed that Much and Eve have nearly the same hair and eye color.
Back in the dungeons, Gisborne is still trying to get Lambert to see things his way. Granted, I think Gisborne has a point. He can only try to save Lambert if he agrees to play along (although I'm not sure mentally strong-arming him was what Marian meant when she said Gisborne should try appealing to Lambert as a friend).
Also, it's an interesting argument Gisborne makes here…one that gets trotted out a lot in times of war and political crises. A lethal tool is perfectly useful (and objectively harmless) if it's only used to take out your enemies. Of course, Lambert is a man of science and so he's not buying it. I think his point about Gisborne's naïveté is off the mark though. Gisborne's not naïve about the uses of black powder…he's just sugar-coating the whole thing for Lambert's sake. It is interesting that Lambert doesn't immediately agree to provide Gisborne the ledger in exchange for his freedom…but he doesn't immediately refuse either.
At Bonchurch, Much is showing us why he's nobody's fool…having already figured it out that this is an all an elaborate trap and the pretty girl is probably a spy. Eve, whose face betrays no nefarious intent whatsoever, is quick to differ and offer her services as a servant. And Much is so starved for luxury and female companionship that he falls for the whole routine. I would say this was pathetic, except that it's completely adorable! Plus, I think she's not entirely untruthful when she says the place is warm at night and lovely. Also, Much's whole "as traps go, this is very pleasant" thing is adorable. [4]
Meanwhile, Robin's managed to sneak into the castle via a barrel of meat dip. It makes for a nice comedic routine, but I don't understand how it works…are the stones under the barrel loose enough to allow a man to worm his way through or something? *shrugs* Also, mean old jailers are no match for a young man who lives in the forest.
In the dungeons, Lambert is looking utterly broken (and in fact, he's literally broken), although to his credit, he still hasn't spilled the beans about the ledger. In fact, even when faced with Robin, he won't give the ledger up immediately. He even asks why he should trust Robin, considering he's an outlaw. Forgive me for thinking Lambert is the first person on the show ever to "get" that outlaw = bad. Of course, Lambert ultimately gives in and tells Robin, but he must have decided Robin was the lesser of two evils, and if he didn't at least tell him, all his work and progress…his entire invention…would die with him.
Oh, interesting point Robin makes about how "everybody breaks" under torture, especially when you consider it in light of what happens to Allan in 2x01. Fascinating…
Nice of Marian to stop by to visit Much at Bonchurch, but how did she know about it? From what I can tell, Robin hasn't had time to sneak around and see Marian, and Gisborne doesn't seem to have told her either? Maybe she just listens in at keyholes and stuff? (Yes, I totally got that line off Allan!)
Once again, Eve deserves a lot of credit for never giving anything away with her facial expressions, not even when Marian shows up. Also, Much and Marian are playing at a very deadly game, especially considering they're both aware that Eve is a spy of some sort.
I love how Much's face gets when Eve gives him a vaguely "come hither" look as she goes up the stairs. How in the heck do either Vaysey or Eve know about Much's fascination with flower-scented baths? (It's got to be Thornton, really).
Hmm…if I were hiding a book, a place full of water would not be my first choice. I guess that's why Lambert's the genius and not me, lol. (How does he ensure the pages stay dry and the ink doesn't run? Is it wrapped in oilskin or something? The pages do look a bit waxy, like they've been laminated 12th-century style…*ponders*)
Djaq looks way excited to see the contents of the ledger. She does have a bit of a mad scientist gleam in her eyes, I must say. I wonder if alchemists had standards symbols back then, so she could understand Lambert's coding without his help. And again, Djaq, it's black powder, not Greek Fire! For the massive science fail!!!
It's an interesting look Djaq and Robin exchange after he tells her they're keeping the ledger safe. There's no time to argue, but I bet Djaq wanted to say something.
Eve's not exactly subtle about rifling through Much's belongings, is she? I like that she's aware enough to realize someone's in the house, but I'm a bit hurt (for Much's sake) that she doesn't give him credit for realizing that she'd go through his stuff…since he's clever enough to keep Marian's note safe from her.
I'm not usually a big fan of Robin's treatment of Much, bordering as it does on the cruel most of the time. But this scene sort of works for me. For one, Robin is only slightly condescending. For another, he sort of allows Much a shred of dignity by reminding him he's the useful man on the inside wrt the Council of Nobles. Let's face, making Much the earl of Bonchurch is a bit of a joke and Robin knows it. I'm just happy he doesn't laugh in Much's face.
Robin's exchange with Marian is interesting too. He doesn’t buy for one minute that Marian could sway Gisborne. The irony is, of course, that she actually can. And in this case, she almost has. I think he's wrong that Gisborne doesn't have a conscience…he does. It's just that he's willing to switch it off when it gets in the way. Robin does that too sometimes, so he should be more familiar with the practice.
It's fascinating to me that Marian is most interested in saving Lambert, whereas Robin is most interested in saving the ledger (and any saving of Lambert is sort of incidental). I'm not fan of Robin's, but I give him all the win points for this episode, just for his one line: "How is it our calling to judge what should or shouldn't exist as knowledge?" The knowledge itself is worth saving, and Robin sees that. I'm sort of surprised Marian doesn't, but her concerns of a more immediate nature, I guess. She's also certain Lambert and/or Robin can't keep the ledger hidden forever, but of course, she turns out to be wrong on that score. (Also, if the purpose of sending Lambert to Kirklees is to keep him safe, why does Marian want Robin to intercept him? He'd be safer at the abbey no matter what, right?)
I love the next shot, of the Sheriff painting his toenails black while he cajoles and coaxes Gisborne into not helping Lambert. Boy, does Vaysey know what buttons to push or what? Gisborne's already said betrayal is the worst crime of all, and here's the Sheriff telling him his friend has betrayed him…to Robin Hood of all people. Lambert's basically dead to Gisborne now, so it hardly matters to him if the Sheriff tortures or kills Lambert. (But nevertheless, Gisborne deserves some credit for looking vaguely disturbed at the prospect. Underneath all that black leather is a good—if highly conflicted—man).
His words to Marian after Lambert's death are interesting too. Loyalties are sometimes divided…yep, Marian knows all about that, Guy! ;) I'm still not sure Gisborne ever meant to save Lambert, but Lambert's death basically gave him an out with Marian, didn't it? He can say he had nothing to do with Lambert's death (technically true) and that, in fact, it was Robin's hastiness with respect to the ledger that hastened poor Lambert's end (also technically true).
Gisborne's little eyeroll + headshake when Much walks in to the Council is great too. It's like he's amused and disgusted, all at the same time. It turns out that Vaysey has enough education to know the story of the Roman emperor who made his horse a senator. [5] But it's a sign of just how loathsome he is that he would bring it up just as Much takes his seat in the Council. Treat Much Right! Of course, Vaysey is just bringing up the horse thing, so he can make his joke about saying "nay" later. *rolls eyes*
To their credit, all the nobles look really uncomfortable at the way Vaysey treats Much, perhaps because they're thinking it could be them next. Even Eve is thoroughly disgusted (which may be a sign of her growing affection for Much, actually).
Here comes the whistle signal again…and note that Will's signal is different from Allan's and Marian's! Awesome. I really want to know how they came up with all the different signals, and whether some of them couldn't whistle at all at first.
I don't get how/why Marian only wears two dresses in every episode. When she changes out of one, she just puts on the previous one. What's up with that? Maybe she only brings two sets to the castle or something?
The gang is really discrete when Marian is around. They hang back, and then slowly just sort of walk away when things get a bit emotional with her and Robin. You can't even buy that sort of friendship (but it's like Robin appreciates all this or anything. *sigh*)
Ah, we finally get to the big Will/Djaq row…the only one ever filmed (but knowing these two, probably not the only one they ever had. Hee). I love Will to death, but I just really can't get behind his argument here. The funny thing is, I think most people in fandom find his side more tenable!
I don’t know if any of you are familiar with a piece of fanfiction called The Science of Falling Apart. It's a Will/Djaq AU which begins with this very scene from the episode. It's a very well-written story and it has lots of things I love, although it remains unfinished. *sigh*
Anyway, in the story, Will's argument is extended to include some business about how "this is progress" just leads down the slippery slope to condoning every act in the name of progress and science. The author obviously felt very strongly about this, and I think the argument had a lot of resonance for her readers. But she never gave Djaq the chance to make a counter-argument. In fact, Djaq simply apologizes later and never really brings up the ledger again.
But that's not the Djaq I know, and surely Djaq would have had more to say along the lines of "this is progress" if (a) Allan had not added the unfortunate bit about blowing up castles (although, heh, I guess the blowing up of the castle in S3 is a sort of tribute to Allan then? Heh), and (b) Robin hadn't walked in announcing Lambert's death.
Anyway, if I was writing that story, I would have had Djaq calmly grab Will's axe and throw it into the river. It's true the axe is only a tool that makes chopping wood easier than with just a knife, but if wielded differently, it can also be used to harm people, even kill them. So it is with black powder…used by miners, it's a tool that allows easier extraction of ore than with a chisel, but if wielded by the wrong people, it has the power to harm, even kill. Ultimately, you can't put the progress genie back in the bottle, and I think Djaq would have tried to make Will see, if she had the chance. (I also think Will might have bought her argument eventually. He doesn't seem too upset about the stuff showing up in 2x12, does he?)
What doesn’t help Djaq's cause is that seriously manic look on her face as she talks about making black powder. It's obviously just her natural curiosity and enthusiasm for scientific discovery, but coupled with her "with this, we'd be unstoppable" business? It makes her seem more than a little nuts, and it's no wonder Will wants to burn the ledger.
Robin does an extraordinarily smart thing next. He takes the ledger from Djaq, knowing she at least will not contradict him, at least not openly. This way he can burn the ledger and appease Will, while taking comfort in the knowledge that Djaq will take the ledger when the time comes. Really well played. Much love, Robin.
At Bonchurch, it's nice to see that Much, even as a lord, is generous with his wealth. It's obvious that Eve is pleased at well, and I think, sort of overwhelmed by his unexpected generosity to the peasants. I think she had already decided she wouldn't play Vaysey's game before this feast, but this must have confirmed it for her. You can see how sincere she is when she thanks him for making everyone happy. When Much does eventually become Lord of Bonchurch (because he will, canon be damned!), it's going to be the happiest place in all of England.
So Robin expects Much to just relay the misinformation to the Sheriff via Eve, and that way, Vaysey will lead them to the black powder. It's a good plan, but I guess nobody bargained on Eve being a clever enough spy to listen at keyholes herself. The theme of this episode is everyone underestimating everyone else, isn't it?
You would think Marian, of all people, would have more sympathy for someone stuck between two opposing forces, as Much is here. Instead, she tells him to have no sympathy for Eve and to just do whatever Robin tells him. Double standard much, Marian? Fail.
The next scene with Much and Eve is very touching in so many ways. I think it's the only time the writers have ever managed to strike the right note of romance ever…in the entire 39-episode run of the series. Here's Eve finally letting her guard down, and here's Much, getting her and trying to let her be herself, even though he knows that she's a spy. Really terrific…and the actors are both brilliant. This is one of my favorite scenes of the entire show.
Also, Sam Troughton is just a painfully good actor…I think possibly the best of the entire cast. Just look at all the different expressions that cross his face as he explains his desperate loneliness (and his desperate hunger) to Eve. *sigh* It's a reminder this show can be so good sometimes.
It's easy to say Much is naïve to trust Eve here, but I think he's seen her on a different level than Marian and Robin and Vaysey, so he's convinced she's trustworthy, even though she's a spy. He's also determined to give her whatever information she needs to protect herself from the Sheriff. Either way, he's proven that it's not the title or the land that makes a man noble.
Back at the castle, Gisborne has the good grace to apologize for his part in the whole Lambert ordeal, but apparently, not the good grace to leave talk of betrothal rings for a better, more appropriate time. *sigh* Also, I have a feeling Marian doesn't usually wear the ring anyway, but this time, it gave her something to hit Gisborne hard with. But wow, Gisborne using "I have to protect you [from the Sheriff]" as his bargaining chip here is lowdown and dirty…and also sort of clever. He's pretty good at manipulation when he needs to be, isn't he?
But Marian knows how to kick a man in the teeth too. "Everything is back in its box" is her way of telling Gisborne her ship has sailed. She gave him one chance to show him what he was really made of, and he failed, big time. She's done with Gisborne…and it's too bad he needs her too much to realize it (or do the right thing and let her go) at this point.
Interesting how Vaysey greets Eve…as "delightfully cruel and gloriously deceitful". Plus, he actually kisses her, which makes me think he has some affection for her. This is the Sheriff we're talking about, so it's not real affection, but it does denote some respect and fondness that's absent from his dealings with other people (notably Gisborne, for example). Fascinating…makes me wonder how Eve first came to Vaysey's attention. Eve looks like she feels dirty and needs a good scrubdown though. (Part of me thinks she's let Much off the hook, but doesn't much care about the rest of Robin Hood's mission…she'd rather just get paid. Practical sort, isn't she? I like her loads).
"You are a good man" is like the ultimate compliment on this show, isn't it? ROFL. Also, how can Much go from liking someone as awesome as Eve to having anything to do with Kate at all? Weirdness!
What happens to Eve anyway? We never hear from her again (or of her again), so I have to assume she basically takes everything in Bonchurch (as Much instructed her to do) and takes off to points unknown, leaving Much to find her at the end of the day. I hope he does find her…they're awesome together. I love the end of the scene, where Much wistfully touches his lordly robes before blowing out the candle and closing the door on his days as a manor lord. So sad, but so good.
Ah, nerts on the next shot. The cameraman who managed to shoot Will with a shrub in front of his face should be...er, fired forthwith. Fail.
Oooo, chess! Yay! We have some context for Vaysey's chess-based allusions next series! Also, it's amazing how little time it takes for Vaysey to put two-and-two together and figure out Eve has set him up. Why do masterminds always have to be so evil?
Ok, this next bit with the flaming arrow whizzing past Gisborne's face cracks me up every time I watch the episode! Gisborne's men run away as soon as they see Robin ready the bow, so why does Gisborne wait till practically the last minute? He's really slow when it matters the most, lol. Also, Gisborne's outfit isn't leather…it's Kevlar, which is why he survived that blast! Good for him. ;)
The Sheriff's equanimity in the face of yet another defeat by Robin Hood is pretty impressive, actually. I guess he thinks this is mostly Gisborne's fault, so he'll get his some other way, eventually.
The last montage is great…both the ribbing of Much and Robin's knowing little smirk when he realizes Djaq has taken the ledger. I love how he uses Will's own "this is not about one man's wish" when he throws the ledger on the fire, and how he uses Much's annoying "my lord" nonsense to distract others so Djaq can do what he knows she will. I wonder if he schedules absences for Djaq from camp, so she can collect the stuff she needs to make black powder. Good stuff.
Not a terrible episode, but mostly filler, IMO. The only plot continuity segment featured the breakdown of any friendship between Gisborne and Marian. There were some vague philosophical points about the dangers of science and progress, and a cute, but ultimately unnecessary plot about Much. Also, it was sadly very low on OT3 goodness, which seems wrong, especially in view of the revelations of last week.
Next week, possibly the most cracktastic episode of the first series…complete with spandex-clad female ninjas, a bad case of PTSD and/or tattooing, geeky Will, patriotic Djaq, and Allan being just plain ol' scared.
--
[1] Black powder was a term coined in the 1800s to distinguish contemporary gun powder from the new smokeless variety that came into vogue in the 19th century. So it's fair to say whatever it was that Lambert made, he wouldn't have called it "black powder" in 1192. And as guns didn't exist then either, he probably wouldn't have called it "gun powder" (so full points to the writers for not being quite that lame!)
The Chinese had some variant of black/gun powder by about the 11th century (but it wasn't nearly as potent as the stuff Lambert makes in this episode). Also, since Marco Polo hadn't made his famous voyage yet, and since the Arab world wouldn't come in contact with Chinese technology for another century or so, I do wonder where Lambert learned how to make it!
The show also refers to black powder as Greek Fire (or, if you buy Djaq's jingoistic claim, Saracen Fire)…but that's wrong. Greek Fire is a reference to incendiary devices made using a mixture of pine tar/pitch and sulfur, and NOT an explosive, and Djaq would have known this, so shame on her for getting it wrong! I suspect Greek Fire is the Byzantine fire nonsense that Archer has access to in S3.
Finally, it's possible Lambert just sort of stumbled on the formula on his own. The ingredients for black powder are simple and would have been readily available to him (and later, to Djaq)…but only if he was already experimenting on something similar.
[2] I know you’re already dead bored, so I won’t bore you with all the legalese, but know that almost all licensing negotiations break down over the field-of-use restrictions. If only Lambert had a decent lawyer! ;)
[3] In the US, the “shop right” is the right of an employer to use an invention made by an employee who was working within the scope of his employment, using the employer’s equipment, or inventing at the employer’s expense.
[4] Do those slippers Eve gives Much actually have the letter "M" emblazoned on them? Makes you wonder how long the Sheriff has been planning this…seems like a lot of effort for just one of Hood's men, doesn't it?
[5] This is a reference to Caligula making his favorite horse a senator. Of course, it's a fictional reference out of the book, I, Claudius. Considering that book wasn’t published until 1934, Vaysey is prescient indeed! ;)
Enjoy!
I apologize for the EXTREME delay in getting this post up. I've been sick since Thursday, and all the medicated sleeping really cut into my rewatching and recapping time.
Anyway, for the discussion questions this week, we finally turn to Guy of Gisborne. You fangirls can do your happy dance now! ;)
I know he's been getting a lot of play in the commentary, so I'm going to try to limit myself to episode-specific questions about him:
1. How did Guy and Lambert become friends, esp. as Lambert appears to have a scientific education, and Guy has never shown much interest in any aspect of a classical education?
2. Did Gisborne anticipate the Sheriff would have less-than-noble uses for Lambert's invention, and keep that information from Lambert? Does he just assume that Lambert will just be happy with payment and principles be damned?
3. Marian seems rather pleased with the fact that Guy has friends. Discuss.
4. Did Gisborne really intend to save Lambert, or was he just sort of telling Marian what she needed to hear?
5. Why do Vaysey and Gisborne never attempt to get the ledger back from Robin Hood, after making an entire episode's worth of fuss over it?
My answers are scattered throughout this recap.
On to the episode…which I actually rather like, but mostly for lawyerly—and not fangirly—reasons.
It's interesting that this one jumps right into the plot. That doesn't usually happen on the show, or at least not in so obvious a way.
Black powder is fascinating, isn't it? Or it would be, if I knew what it was. Yes, this is about a show anachronism. I know I made some vague promise not to go on about those, but my promises on that score are like your local senator's promises on healthcare reform…they're more like suggestions. ;) I'll spare you the abject boredom by putting all the black powder-related info in a footnote. [1]
I love the individual reactions of each of the characters…Marian is intrigued, Guy is proud (and just a bit smug), and Vaysey is utterly bored (not to mention more than just a bit skeptical). Well, that’s all about to get blown to smithereens. (Horrible explosion-related pun totally intended).
I’m utterly fascinated by the wordless exchange between Gisborne and Vaysey right here, as Lambert explains how his invention can be used to make the miners job easier and reduce the risk to their lives. I have a sense that Gisborne and Vaysey have completely different plans for the black powder. The alternate explanation is that Gisborne is sincere in wanting the stuff as a blasting agent for the mines, and perhaps he’s just gloating in advance about how his plan is going to make the mine more productive when the Sheriff’s “guest worker” plan didn’t. Nah, that makes no sense. We know Gisborne is Teh Eebil! ;)
The Sheriff looks utterly gleeful, like a child at Christmas after he’s seen the stuff at work, doesn’t he?
Fortunately for him (or maybe unfortunately), Lambert is no idiot. He’s onto Vaysey (and possibly Gisborne), so he decides to put a few conditions on Sheriff’s acquisition of his intellectual property. He should have talked to me first about IP licensing and leverage though. ;)
Let’s see…Lambert wants (a) to make Vaysey a non-exclusive licensee, (b) royalties under the license agreement and (c) a field-of-use restriction, limiting his invention to non-weapon uses. These are all quite standard under most IP licensing agreements, so millions of win points to Lambert for being…oh, about 900 years ahead of his time. [2]
Does anyone (except Gisborne) ever respond in the affirmative to Vaysey saying “trust me?” Is there anything at all about his face that inspires trust? A clue…no.
I like this next bit, where Gisborne tells Lambert to think about what he’s doing. It’s both a threat and a warning…as if he’s trying to let Lambert the Sheriff is lethal when unhappy, without actually spelling it out for him. (If they’re friends though, surely this has come up in discussion before?)
Of course, Lambert predictably runs into the forest and into the arms of Robin Hood…who, naturally, isn’t at all interested in Lambert’s invention…only in saving his
Oh, so Gisborne thinks he and Lambert already have an agreement and Lambert is in breach of contract! But Lambert thinks there never was a contract, and further accuses Gisborne of fraud, therefore negating Lambert’s duty to perform under the contract! This would make a fascinating hypothetical problem on a law school contracts exam. *geeks out*
Gisborne shows impressive legal knowledge in this next bit, noting that Lambert’s invention belongs equally to Gisborne, since Gisborne commissioned him. This is, of course, the “shop right” doctrine, so millions of win points to Gisborne for also being 900 years ahead of his time. [3] If Gisborne is right, he doesn’t actually need Lambert’s permission to use the invention in any way he wants. He doesn’t even need Lambert…he just needs the ledger. A thousand more win points to Gisborne for thinking strategically…and without the help of either Marian or Vaysey this time!
Ah, fail points to Lambert for not properly understanding how this whole “commission” thing works. Gisborne didn’t commission a portrait of a pretty woman, after all. The invention is useless to him, unless he can actually…er, use it. So why would he agree to an arrangement where his input ended with paying Lambert to make black powder? I realize the writers mean for us to sympathize with Lambert here, but I’m not seeing it. If I paid someone to make something for me…say, a cabinet, you can bet I’d be more than a little upset if the cabinet didn’t turn out quite the way I liked.
The smart thing for Lambert to do would have been to provide Gisborne with a duplicate ledger with a fake formula, and then abscond to another county (or heck, even another country) with the real ledger. By the time Vaysey and Gisborne find themselves another alchemist who will decode the fake ledger and make more black powder, Lambert will be long gone. Of course, then we’d have no episode…so never mind! ;)
I guess this is the show’s “responsible use of lethal power” segment, and I suspect this is another analogy to modern politics, but meh.
And…just like that, we’re back in the 12th century, where uncooperative scientists are subjected to the rack…rather than just, say, denial of tenure. That’s either good or bad, depending on your perspective. ;)
Nice shot of the outlaws in their lookout post just at the edge of the forest. It looks to me like Lambert ran maybe a hundred years at the most between Robin and Gisborne…so how is it that Gisborne never spots the outlaws here? Fail.
I sort of like AND hate the next scene with the gang discussing Lambert and the black powder. Bulleted list of win and fail points follows…
-- Win: Allan, with his gleeful explanation of how the Sheriff could take out a whole village for not paying taxes (I especially love how he makes the “boom” noise! Oh, Allan! :D)
-- Win: John, who doesn’t particularly care about the black powder, but really hates that Lambert punched him to the ground!
-- Win: Robin, for currently identifying the incendiary weapons used by the Saracens in the Holy Land as “Greek Fire”, even though he’s wrong to think black powder is the same as Greek Fire.
-- Fail (of massive proportions): Djaq, who (because of her training in science), should have realized Robin’s error, and correctly identified the black powder as NOT Greek Fire. Also, maybe because her patriotism is clouding her brain, she appears to have forgotten that the Saracens didn’t actually invent “Saracen Fire.” They just sort of acquired the knowledge by conquest.
-- Fail (of epic proportions): Will, who abandons his usual rational curiosity to make black powder seem “evil” rather than just “dangerous when in the wrong hands.” Also, he says it doesn’t require “wit” to use the black powder. Er, what? How would anyone know how much to use for a particular explosion, where to lay the charges, what a safe distance was, etc…if it required no wit to use it?
So someone needs to get arrested and taken to the dungeon. Now, is Robin actually asking for volunteers? Because I can see why this wouldn’t be the best of assignments for any of the outlaws. Also, does Much volunteer because he thinks everyone else will too? I mean, yes, he’s more than willing to help Robin, but why on Earth would Much, the one outlaw who seems determined to have a full belly and get a good night’s sleep, actually volunteer to get arrested? It makes no sense to me.
I also hate that everyone laughs when Much volunteers. They need to respect Much a little more…and Robin needs to lead by example. Treat Much Right! (Interesting side note…when all the others guffaw, Will just sort of has this angry expression on his face…he’s still thinking about the Greek Fire argument, I guess).
Anyway, in town, Much has apparently found Nottingham’s official free speech zone, because absolutely nobody tries to arrest him when he mouths off about the Sheriff. (Actually, I suspect Vaysey doesn’t care what people say about him, so he lets this sort of thing slide up to a point. The guards even have that “been there, done that” air to them).
But beat the crap out of a guard and you get arrested before you can say “assault and battery on a police officer!” I’m amused by how hard it is for Much to actually get arrested, the poor thing…and even more amused that Much remembers to thank the guards for hauling him off to the dungeons! :D
Huh…who knew Much could break himself out of his shackles with a file and all? Also, I like how Lambert doesn’t trust Much either. The words “Robin Hood” apparently don’t carry a lot of weight with educated non-peasant types. Or maybe Lambert’s just not from Nottingham?
I’m impressed that Gisborne at least tries to help Lambert, even if all he’s really doing is playing “good cop” to Vaysey’s “bad cop” (by refusing to torture Lambert at first). I’m even more impressed that Lambert apparently doesn’t fall for it. (More and more though, I’m just wondering about the circumstances under which these two became friends in the first place).
Of course, Gisborne’s leniency to his friends is nothing in the face of taunts from Vaysey re: Gisborne going soft…so naturally, Lambert’s days are numbered. *sigh* But in this case, Vaysey doesn’t even give Gisborne a chance to prove he can be less lenient. He just takes him right off the case! Wow…
This whole argument with Vaysey and Gisborne doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. Two episodes ago, the Sheriff had absolutely no qualms about hanging Robin Hood’s men…and in fact, he used the hanging to make a grand political point. So why would this make any difference? Wouldn’t hanging Much have pretty much the same effect as hanging Tom-A-Dale in 1x07 did? (Also, since Vaysey knows Robin has his own alchemist, wouldn’t it make more sense for the Sheriff to try to get Djaq in his evil little clutches again, instead of Much?) It’s weird to me how the Sheriff flits constantly between “destroy Hood” and “win hearts and minds.”
How come Will isn’t in the group of cloaked outlaws headed to town? (In fact, how come he’s constantly missing from these sort of scenes? Weirdness). Djaq looks really pretty in her cloak though, and I see that her sword belt is actually a holster! Cool. Allan making mean jokes about Much seems unfair though. Poor Much.
How does Vaysey know that food is the easiest way to persuade Much? Does he do a quick psych profile in his head? Or is it more that he just suspects all of Robin Hood’s men are probably starved for a good meal? Either way, “knowledge is power” is well at work in this episode.
I think it’s adorable how Much decides to sit back and enjoy the food, but is horrified the Sheriff would consider killing him before he can actually finish the feast! The look on Much’s face is classic…as is his attempt to bolt.
How does Vaysey know that Much was promised Bonchurch, and that this means a great deal to Much? Wasn’t that a conversation that only Robin and Much were privy to? This makes me wonder if Thornton (the servant at Locksley Manor, not Mr. Izzy of S3) has shared this information with Gisborne who then told the Sheriff about this in passing. Gisborne looks absolutely stunned at this revelation, which confirms my suspicion re: Thornton. (Or maybe Gisborne is just stunned because Bonchurch is technically part of his holding in Locksley?)
If Much had been even just a bit more sophisticated, he never would have fallen for this gag. For one, the Sheriff doesn’t speak all the solemn words required when you dub someone. For another, earldoms could only be inherited or acquired by marriage, or granted by the king, not by crown officials like the Sheriff. Not even Prince John could really grant it. Poor Much.
You would think that by now, Vaysey would have realized that torture isn’t very effective at producing the desired result. Tsk, tsk. I am a bit upset that Gisborne doesn’t seem more peeved that his friend is being tortured. He doesn’t even respond to Lambert’s cries at the end of the scene.
It’s an interesting point the Sheriff makes…about how money and power will convert someone like Much to their point of view. I suspect that’s true for most people, but Vaysey has no way of knowing that Much’s loyalty to Robin trumps all other emotions and desires. This is another instance of knowledge being power, isn’t it? As is Vaysey’s assertion that he has someone on the inside at Bonchurch. (Isn’t that a bit fortuitous though…that he already has a spy set up there, even though he has no way of knowing when (if ever) Much will get arrested?)
It’s interesting that Marian sort of gets the reason for Gisborne’s dismay wrong. She just assumes he’s upset about Lambert, but she doesn’t understand the reason is because Gisborne is feeling under-appreciated by Vaysey. Weird…she’s usually so on the ball where he’s concerned.
However, she makes up for it just a moment later by noting that Vaysey’s an endgame man. It’s a very astute observation, and it reinforces my view that Vaysey and Marian are the only two people on the show who actually “get” each other. (But, like all smart people, they’re also stupid enough to underestimate each other constantly).
She’s right though…all Gisborne needs to “win” with Vaysey is the ledger, and it also gives her a chance to get Gisborne to save Lambert. (I don’t think Gisborne appreciates what she’s really hinting at here…which is not just “save Lambert” but also “give me a reason to like you better.”) I think it’s the gesture of her hand on his shoulder that wins the day with Gisborne (and also clues Vaysey in to Marian’s involvement here. *sigh*)
Ah, okay…now we know where Will is. He’s at the sewer entrance, waiting. I guess he’s the gang’s official getaway guy…because, you know, a guy standing around a sewer with a huge axe strapped to his back blends right in. *rolls eyes*
Love Allan’s line on seeing Much all dressed up and riding in a carriage! “All bets are off!” How very Allan of him. ;)
Is it just me or is the lodge at Bonchurch nicer than Locksley Manor? Also, why are Much’s robes so outlandish? All the other nobles seem somewhat normally dressed?
Ok, so the gang decides to follow, and this time Will is with them…which makes me wonder how they managed to follow the carriage to Bonchurch and also alert Will (who is at the sewer, remember) that they were leaving? My head hurts now.
Ah, this is the infamous hand-on-shoulder Will/Djaq bit. I note there’s really no reason for the hand either. Will, you dog! ;)
Also, is it just me, or does Allan shoot Will a tiny bit of a dirty look, just before he speaks to Robin here? ROFL. Oh, OT3, how happy you make me! :D
(Also, Allan apparently knows 101 different ways to break into the castle!)
Oh, here she is now…the lovely Eve of Bonchurch. (I always call her that, even if that’s not quite her name). I wonder if she was expecting someone completely different than Much, because she seems a bit surprised when he gets out of the carriage, doesn’t she? Maybe she’s just thinking how nice Much looks when he’s not wearing that silly cap all the time…that’s what I’m thinking anyway! Also, I just noticed that Much and Eve have nearly the same hair and eye color.
Back in the dungeons, Gisborne is still trying to get Lambert to see things his way. Granted, I think Gisborne has a point. He can only try to save Lambert if he agrees to play along (although I'm not sure mentally strong-arming him was what Marian meant when she said Gisborne should try appealing to Lambert as a friend).
Also, it's an interesting argument Gisborne makes here…one that gets trotted out a lot in times of war and political crises. A lethal tool is perfectly useful (and objectively harmless) if it's only used to take out your enemies. Of course, Lambert is a man of science and so he's not buying it. I think his point about Gisborne's naïveté is off the mark though. Gisborne's not naïve about the uses of black powder…he's just sugar-coating the whole thing for Lambert's sake. It is interesting that Lambert doesn't immediately agree to provide Gisborne the ledger in exchange for his freedom…but he doesn't immediately refuse either.
At Bonchurch, Much is showing us why he's nobody's fool…having already figured it out that this is an all an elaborate trap and the pretty girl is probably a spy. Eve, whose face betrays no nefarious intent whatsoever, is quick to differ and offer her services as a servant. And Much is so starved for luxury and female companionship that he falls for the whole routine. I would say this was pathetic, except that it's completely adorable! Plus, I think she's not entirely untruthful when she says the place is warm at night and lovely. Also, Much's whole "as traps go, this is very pleasant" thing is adorable. [4]
Meanwhile, Robin's managed to sneak into the castle via a barrel of meat dip. It makes for a nice comedic routine, but I don't understand how it works…are the stones under the barrel loose enough to allow a man to worm his way through or something? *shrugs* Also, mean old jailers are no match for a young man who lives in the forest.
In the dungeons, Lambert is looking utterly broken (and in fact, he's literally broken), although to his credit, he still hasn't spilled the beans about the ledger. In fact, even when faced with Robin, he won't give the ledger up immediately. He even asks why he should trust Robin, considering he's an outlaw. Forgive me for thinking Lambert is the first person on the show ever to "get" that outlaw = bad. Of course, Lambert ultimately gives in and tells Robin, but he must have decided Robin was the lesser of two evils, and if he didn't at least tell him, all his work and progress…his entire invention…would die with him.
Oh, interesting point Robin makes about how "everybody breaks" under torture, especially when you consider it in light of what happens to Allan in 2x01. Fascinating…
Nice of Marian to stop by to visit Much at Bonchurch, but how did she know about it? From what I can tell, Robin hasn't had time to sneak around and see Marian, and Gisborne doesn't seem to have told her either? Maybe she just listens in at keyholes and stuff? (Yes, I totally got that line off Allan!)
Once again, Eve deserves a lot of credit for never giving anything away with her facial expressions, not even when Marian shows up. Also, Much and Marian are playing at a very deadly game, especially considering they're both aware that Eve is a spy of some sort.
I love how Much's face gets when Eve gives him a vaguely "come hither" look as she goes up the stairs. How in the heck do either Vaysey or Eve know about Much's fascination with flower-scented baths? (It's got to be Thornton, really).
Hmm…if I were hiding a book, a place full of water would not be my first choice. I guess that's why Lambert's the genius and not me, lol. (How does he ensure the pages stay dry and the ink doesn't run? Is it wrapped in oilskin or something? The pages do look a bit waxy, like they've been laminated 12th-century style…*ponders*)
Djaq looks way excited to see the contents of the ledger. She does have a bit of a mad scientist gleam in her eyes, I must say. I wonder if alchemists had standards symbols back then, so she could understand Lambert's coding without his help. And again, Djaq, it's black powder, not Greek Fire! For the massive science fail!!!
It's an interesting look Djaq and Robin exchange after he tells her they're keeping the ledger safe. There's no time to argue, but I bet Djaq wanted to say something.
Eve's not exactly subtle about rifling through Much's belongings, is she? I like that she's aware enough to realize someone's in the house, but I'm a bit hurt (for Much's sake) that she doesn't give him credit for realizing that she'd go through his stuff…since he's clever enough to keep Marian's note safe from her.
I'm not usually a big fan of Robin's treatment of Much, bordering as it does on the cruel most of the time. But this scene sort of works for me. For one, Robin is only slightly condescending. For another, he sort of allows Much a shred of dignity by reminding him he's the useful man on the inside wrt the Council of Nobles. Let's face, making Much the earl of Bonchurch is a bit of a joke and Robin knows it. I'm just happy he doesn't laugh in Much's face.
Robin's exchange with Marian is interesting too. He doesn’t buy for one minute that Marian could sway Gisborne. The irony is, of course, that she actually can. And in this case, she almost has. I think he's wrong that Gisborne doesn't have a conscience…he does. It's just that he's willing to switch it off when it gets in the way. Robin does that too sometimes, so he should be more familiar with the practice.
It's fascinating to me that Marian is most interested in saving Lambert, whereas Robin is most interested in saving the ledger (and any saving of Lambert is sort of incidental). I'm not fan of Robin's, but I give him all the win points for this episode, just for his one line: "How is it our calling to judge what should or shouldn't exist as knowledge?" The knowledge itself is worth saving, and Robin sees that. I'm sort of surprised Marian doesn't, but her concerns of a more immediate nature, I guess. She's also certain Lambert and/or Robin can't keep the ledger hidden forever, but of course, she turns out to be wrong on that score. (Also, if the purpose of sending Lambert to Kirklees is to keep him safe, why does Marian want Robin to intercept him? He'd be safer at the abbey no matter what, right?)
I love the next shot, of the Sheriff painting his toenails black while he cajoles and coaxes Gisborne into not helping Lambert. Boy, does Vaysey know what buttons to push or what? Gisborne's already said betrayal is the worst crime of all, and here's the Sheriff telling him his friend has betrayed him…to Robin Hood of all people. Lambert's basically dead to Gisborne now, so it hardly matters to him if the Sheriff tortures or kills Lambert. (But nevertheless, Gisborne deserves some credit for looking vaguely disturbed at the prospect. Underneath all that black leather is a good—if highly conflicted—man).
His words to Marian after Lambert's death are interesting too. Loyalties are sometimes divided…yep, Marian knows all about that, Guy! ;) I'm still not sure Gisborne ever meant to save Lambert, but Lambert's death basically gave him an out with Marian, didn't it? He can say he had nothing to do with Lambert's death (technically true) and that, in fact, it was Robin's hastiness with respect to the ledger that hastened poor Lambert's end (also technically true).
Gisborne's little eyeroll + headshake when Much walks in to the Council is great too. It's like he's amused and disgusted, all at the same time. It turns out that Vaysey has enough education to know the story of the Roman emperor who made his horse a senator. [5] But it's a sign of just how loathsome he is that he would bring it up just as Much takes his seat in the Council. Treat Much Right! Of course, Vaysey is just bringing up the horse thing, so he can make his joke about saying "nay" later. *rolls eyes*
To their credit, all the nobles look really uncomfortable at the way Vaysey treats Much, perhaps because they're thinking it could be them next. Even Eve is thoroughly disgusted (which may be a sign of her growing affection for Much, actually).
Here comes the whistle signal again…and note that Will's signal is different from Allan's and Marian's! Awesome. I really want to know how they came up with all the different signals, and whether some of them couldn't whistle at all at first.
I don't get how/why Marian only wears two dresses in every episode. When she changes out of one, she just puts on the previous one. What's up with that? Maybe she only brings two sets to the castle or something?
The gang is really discrete when Marian is around. They hang back, and then slowly just sort of walk away when things get a bit emotional with her and Robin. You can't even buy that sort of friendship (but it's like Robin appreciates all this or anything. *sigh*)
Ah, we finally get to the big Will/Djaq row…the only one ever filmed (but knowing these two, probably not the only one they ever had. Hee). I love Will to death, but I just really can't get behind his argument here. The funny thing is, I think most people in fandom find his side more tenable!
I don’t know if any of you are familiar with a piece of fanfiction called The Science of Falling Apart. It's a Will/Djaq AU which begins with this very scene from the episode. It's a very well-written story and it has lots of things I love, although it remains unfinished. *sigh*
Anyway, in the story, Will's argument is extended to include some business about how "this is progress" just leads down the slippery slope to condoning every act in the name of progress and science. The author obviously felt very strongly about this, and I think the argument had a lot of resonance for her readers. But she never gave Djaq the chance to make a counter-argument. In fact, Djaq simply apologizes later and never really brings up the ledger again.
But that's not the Djaq I know, and surely Djaq would have had more to say along the lines of "this is progress" if (a) Allan had not added the unfortunate bit about blowing up castles (although, heh, I guess the blowing up of the castle in S3 is a sort of tribute to Allan then? Heh), and (b) Robin hadn't walked in announcing Lambert's death.
Anyway, if I was writing that story, I would have had Djaq calmly grab Will's axe and throw it into the river. It's true the axe is only a tool that makes chopping wood easier than with just a knife, but if wielded differently, it can also be used to harm people, even kill them. So it is with black powder…used by miners, it's a tool that allows easier extraction of ore than with a chisel, but if wielded by the wrong people, it has the power to harm, even kill. Ultimately, you can't put the progress genie back in the bottle, and I think Djaq would have tried to make Will see, if she had the chance. (I also think Will might have bought her argument eventually. He doesn't seem too upset about the stuff showing up in 2x12, does he?)
What doesn’t help Djaq's cause is that seriously manic look on her face as she talks about making black powder. It's obviously just her natural curiosity and enthusiasm for scientific discovery, but coupled with her "with this, we'd be unstoppable" business? It makes her seem more than a little nuts, and it's no wonder Will wants to burn the ledger.
Robin does an extraordinarily smart thing next. He takes the ledger from Djaq, knowing she at least will not contradict him, at least not openly. This way he can burn the ledger and appease Will, while taking comfort in the knowledge that Djaq will take the ledger when the time comes. Really well played. Much love, Robin.
At Bonchurch, it's nice to see that Much, even as a lord, is generous with his wealth. It's obvious that Eve is pleased at well, and I think, sort of overwhelmed by his unexpected generosity to the peasants. I think she had already decided she wouldn't play Vaysey's game before this feast, but this must have confirmed it for her. You can see how sincere she is when she thanks him for making everyone happy. When Much does eventually become Lord of Bonchurch (because he will, canon be damned!), it's going to be the happiest place in all of England.
So Robin expects Much to just relay the misinformation to the Sheriff via Eve, and that way, Vaysey will lead them to the black powder. It's a good plan, but I guess nobody bargained on Eve being a clever enough spy to listen at keyholes herself. The theme of this episode is everyone underestimating everyone else, isn't it?
You would think Marian, of all people, would have more sympathy for someone stuck between two opposing forces, as Much is here. Instead, she tells him to have no sympathy for Eve and to just do whatever Robin tells him. Double standard much, Marian? Fail.
The next scene with Much and Eve is very touching in so many ways. I think it's the only time the writers have ever managed to strike the right note of romance ever…in the entire 39-episode run of the series. Here's Eve finally letting her guard down, and here's Much, getting her and trying to let her be herself, even though he knows that she's a spy. Really terrific…and the actors are both brilliant. This is one of my favorite scenes of the entire show.
Also, Sam Troughton is just a painfully good actor…I think possibly the best of the entire cast. Just look at all the different expressions that cross his face as he explains his desperate loneliness (and his desperate hunger) to Eve. *sigh* It's a reminder this show can be so good sometimes.
It's easy to say Much is naïve to trust Eve here, but I think he's seen her on a different level than Marian and Robin and Vaysey, so he's convinced she's trustworthy, even though she's a spy. He's also determined to give her whatever information she needs to protect herself from the Sheriff. Either way, he's proven that it's not the title or the land that makes a man noble.
Back at the castle, Gisborne has the good grace to apologize for his part in the whole Lambert ordeal, but apparently, not the good grace to leave talk of betrothal rings for a better, more appropriate time. *sigh* Also, I have a feeling Marian doesn't usually wear the ring anyway, but this time, it gave her something to hit Gisborne hard with. But wow, Gisborne using "I have to protect you [from the Sheriff]" as his bargaining chip here is lowdown and dirty…and also sort of clever. He's pretty good at manipulation when he needs to be, isn't he?
But Marian knows how to kick a man in the teeth too. "Everything is back in its box" is her way of telling Gisborne her ship has sailed. She gave him one chance to show him what he was really made of, and he failed, big time. She's done with Gisborne…and it's too bad he needs her too much to realize it (or do the right thing and let her go) at this point.
Interesting how Vaysey greets Eve…as "delightfully cruel and gloriously deceitful". Plus, he actually kisses her, which makes me think he has some affection for her. This is the Sheriff we're talking about, so it's not real affection, but it does denote some respect and fondness that's absent from his dealings with other people (notably Gisborne, for example). Fascinating…makes me wonder how Eve first came to Vaysey's attention. Eve looks like she feels dirty and needs a good scrubdown though. (Part of me thinks she's let Much off the hook, but doesn't much care about the rest of Robin Hood's mission…she'd rather just get paid. Practical sort, isn't she? I like her loads).
"You are a good man" is like the ultimate compliment on this show, isn't it? ROFL. Also, how can Much go from liking someone as awesome as Eve to having anything to do with Kate at all? Weirdness!
What happens to Eve anyway? We never hear from her again (or of her again), so I have to assume she basically takes everything in Bonchurch (as Much instructed her to do) and takes off to points unknown, leaving Much to find her at the end of the day. I hope he does find her…they're awesome together. I love the end of the scene, where Much wistfully touches his lordly robes before blowing out the candle and closing the door on his days as a manor lord. So sad, but so good.
Ah, nerts on the next shot. The cameraman who managed to shoot Will with a shrub in front of his face should be...er, fired forthwith. Fail.
Oooo, chess! Yay! We have some context for Vaysey's chess-based allusions next series! Also, it's amazing how little time it takes for Vaysey to put two-and-two together and figure out Eve has set him up. Why do masterminds always have to be so evil?
Ok, this next bit with the flaming arrow whizzing past Gisborne's face cracks me up every time I watch the episode! Gisborne's men run away as soon as they see Robin ready the bow, so why does Gisborne wait till practically the last minute? He's really slow when it matters the most, lol. Also, Gisborne's outfit isn't leather…it's Kevlar, which is why he survived that blast! Good for him. ;)
The Sheriff's equanimity in the face of yet another defeat by Robin Hood is pretty impressive, actually. I guess he thinks this is mostly Gisborne's fault, so he'll get his some other way, eventually.
The last montage is great…both the ribbing of Much and Robin's knowing little smirk when he realizes Djaq has taken the ledger. I love how he uses Will's own "this is not about one man's wish" when he throws the ledger on the fire, and how he uses Much's annoying "my lord" nonsense to distract others so Djaq can do what he knows she will. I wonder if he schedules absences for Djaq from camp, so she can collect the stuff she needs to make black powder. Good stuff.
Not a terrible episode, but mostly filler, IMO. The only plot continuity segment featured the breakdown of any friendship between Gisborne and Marian. There were some vague philosophical points about the dangers of science and progress, and a cute, but ultimately unnecessary plot about Much. Also, it was sadly very low on OT3 goodness, which seems wrong, especially in view of the revelations of last week.
Next week, possibly the most cracktastic episode of the first series…complete with spandex-clad female ninjas, a bad case of PTSD and/or tattooing, geeky Will, patriotic Djaq, and Allan being just plain ol' scared.
--
[1] Black powder was a term coined in the 1800s to distinguish contemporary gun powder from the new smokeless variety that came into vogue in the 19th century. So it's fair to say whatever it was that Lambert made, he wouldn't have called it "black powder" in 1192. And as guns didn't exist then either, he probably wouldn't have called it "gun powder" (so full points to the writers for not being quite that lame!)
The Chinese had some variant of black/gun powder by about the 11th century (but it wasn't nearly as potent as the stuff Lambert makes in this episode). Also, since Marco Polo hadn't made his famous voyage yet, and since the Arab world wouldn't come in contact with Chinese technology for another century or so, I do wonder where Lambert learned how to make it!
The show also refers to black powder as Greek Fire (or, if you buy Djaq's jingoistic claim, Saracen Fire)…but that's wrong. Greek Fire is a reference to incendiary devices made using a mixture of pine tar/pitch and sulfur, and NOT an explosive, and Djaq would have known this, so shame on her for getting it wrong! I suspect Greek Fire is the Byzantine fire nonsense that Archer has access to in S3.
Finally, it's possible Lambert just sort of stumbled on the formula on his own. The ingredients for black powder are simple and would have been readily available to him (and later, to Djaq)…but only if he was already experimenting on something similar.
[2] I know you’re already dead bored, so I won’t bore you with all the legalese, but know that almost all licensing negotiations break down over the field-of-use restrictions. If only Lambert had a decent lawyer! ;)
[3] In the US, the “shop right” is the right of an employer to use an invention made by an employee who was working within the scope of his employment, using the employer’s equipment, or inventing at the employer’s expense.
[4] Do those slippers Eve gives Much actually have the letter "M" emblazoned on them? Makes you wonder how long the Sheriff has been planning this…seems like a lot of effort for just one of Hood's men, doesn't it?
[5] This is a reference to Caligula making his favorite horse a senator. Of course, it's a fictional reference out of the book, I, Claudius. Considering that book wasn’t published until 1934, Vaysey is prescient indeed! ;)
Enjoy!
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Date: 2009-09-28 06:55 am (UTC)Oh, as for the idea of Lambert as Guy's friend -- this is where the Xena fan in me comes out and I can never resist recalling a line from the show (addressed to Xena): "A friend? You have a friend?" Lambert so totally makes me want to say that to Guy. ;-)
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Date: 2009-09-29 03:10 am (UTC)Unfathomable, isn't it? ;) Lambert just proves that it takes all kinds, lol.
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Date: 2009-09-29 02:33 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-09-29 03:19 am (UTC)Perhaps there friendship had really only started because of the black powder project and marian calling lambert guy's "dear friend" was just her way of over emphizing the situation to guy.
Oh, that's interesting. I hadn't considered the possibility that Lambert is just a friend of convenience for Gisborne. That would make a lot of sense. I still think there's something about Gisborne's interactions with Lambert that suggest they go back a ways...but it's possible my brain is just making all that up, because it makes for a richer story, lol.
was marian glad guy had friends? huh i think marian could care less about guys social life (sorry i really dont like guy/marian especailly in season 1)
Fair enough, if Guy/Marian is not your preference. I don't ship them either, fwiw.
But I have to say, Marian really looked as if she was impressed (or at least glad) that Gisborne had a friend. At this point, she's at least 50% committed to actually marrying Gisborne, so she has to be able to see good in him. In fact, I think she's desperate to see some higher quality in him that she can exploit to make him a better man...one who she can marry without concern for her own life or happiness.
wow ok that was long hope i didn't bore anyone lol.
Oh, not at all! We like long comments around here. :)
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Date: 2009-09-29 06:17 am (UTC)I still haven't rewatched the ep, though I did watch parts of it fairly recently.
I still cannot wrap my mind around the "friendship" between Guy and Lambert. :-/ Oh, wait ... maybe that hidden "different side" of Guy that we keep hearing about is that our favorite leather-clad baddie with a heart is a closet science geek? Is that possible? A clue: No.
Seriously, the frustrating thing about this ep is that one never senses any real connection between Lambert and Guy. We are told that they are friends but we never really see it. First of all, I can't see those two moving in the same social circles. Secondly, does Guy even move in any social circle outside Nottingham Castle? He does have those guests for King Richard's birthday, but I have a feeling these are people who visiting him in his new capacity of Lord of Locksley.
So, what's the Guy/Lambert background? And why is the black powder thing Guy's project? One possible scenario is that Guy meets Lambert, finds out about his work, commissions the black powder, they sort of get along and since neither of them has any real experience of friendship (Lambert because he's an introverted science geek, and Guy because he's ... Guy), they think of each other as friends. Or maybe Lambert thinks of Guy as a friend and Guy is consciously using him. That leaves only one question: Where and how do they meet? The Internet is out of the question. *G*
Oooh... IDEA! *lightbulb goes on*
What if Guy met Lambert on the ship coming back from the Holy Land after the attempted assassination of Richard? Lambert had gone to the HL to study chemistry with the Saracen scholars (an exchange student, as it were). They befriended each other aboard the ship and Guy figured he could put Lambert's scientific knowledge to good use.
Of course, this means that Lambert is in on Guy's Big Secret. Well, not all of it, but he knows that Guy went to the Holy Land. Would Guy risk associating with a man who can bust his "sick in bed with a fever" alibi? (Or even letting him know his true identity?) Hmm, maybe he has figured out that Lambert has his head so far in the clouds that he will never figure out the political significance of any of this, and if he tells Lambert that he was on a Very Important Secret Mission in the Holy Land and no one is supposed to know about it Lambert will never blab. Actually... that scenario would add an interesting twist to Guy's motivation in this episode, because if Lambert has been in contatct with Robin Hood, and right after the tattoo ep, it would make Guy extremely nervous, and far more amenable to the idea of offing his "friend." Iiiiiiinteresting!
Mind you, I'm sure the writers did not think of any of this, but can this be my personal headcanon? Pretty please? (And really, it does sound like the most plausible way for Guy and Lambert to have become acquainted, since I don't think they normally hang out in the same places!)
(More later!)
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Date: 2009-09-29 06:21 pm (UTC)Yeah, I was wondering about that. But I think I didn't help matters any by posting this so late. *sigh* I hope this doesn't mean the end of rewatch though, as I was really starting to enjoy it.
So, what's the Guy/Lambert background?
I don't think the show helps us much with that. But I have my own theories, which I've developed to fit with my own Gisborne canon, lol. Basically, it's my view that Gisborne was mentored by someone associated with the Church (a monk or a priest, for example)...and that he met Lambert in that setting. That is, they were two loner kids who sort of became incidental friends because they lived in the same area and had the same people caring for them. (The Church thing also explains Gisborne's respect towards religious people, fwiw).
Anyway, over time, Gisborne and Lambert go their separate ways. Gisborne forgets all about Lambert. But Lambert who is brilliant but penniless hears Gisborne is now an important so-and-so with money and connections. So he tracks him down, pitches his invention and basically gets Gisborne to fund all his experiments. This is the "friendship" in a nutshell.
Your scenario is more interesting though! ;)
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Date: 2009-09-29 08:15 am (UTC)2. Did Gisborne anticipate the Sheriff would have less-than-noble uses for Lambert's invention, and keep that information from Lambert? Does he just assume that Lambert will just be happy with payment and principles be damned?
I think Guy knows the Sheriff well enough to know that he would have less-than-noble uses for anything that can be put to a less-than-noble use. *G* However, is it possible that Lambert is impractical enough to have never brought up his restrictions? (Btw, I love your discussion of the legal issues! :-D I have a friend who's a law professor specializing in intellectual property law.) Maybe he and Guy just discussed the mine-blasting and the other stuff never came up?
3. Marian seems rather pleased with the fact that Guy has friends. Discuss.
I pretty much agree with what you said, roh:
But I have to say, Marian really looked as if she was impressed (or at least glad) that Gisborne had a friend. At this point, she's at least 50% committed to actually marrying Gisborne, so she has to be able to see good in him. In fact, I think she's desperate to see some higher quality in him that she can exploit to make him a better man...one who she can marry without concern for her own life or happiness.
Definitely. And I think that her distress later was not just over Lambert's death, it was over the fact that Guy betrayed her trust.
What is interesting, too, is that when Marian expresses sympathy because the black powder fiasco is costing Guy "a dear friend," Guy quickly disabuses her of that notion and tells her that he's upset because the Sheriff "undercuts him at every opportunity." You'd think he would figure out that he would endear himself to her far more if he put on an act of being upset about his "dear friend," or even just did not contradict her supposition. But Guy is honest with her. I actually think that Guy always tries (even back in S1) to be honest with Marian, whenever possible. Also, he's a terrible liar (in the sense of being really bad at it :-D). See his extremely lame non-denial denial of his involvement in the Richard assassination attempt in the S1 finale.
4. Did Gisborne really intend to save Lambert, or was he just sort of telling Marian what she needed to hear?
Definitely the former, IMO.
5. Why do Vaysey and Gisborne never attempt to get the ledger back from Robin Hood, after making an entire episode's worth of fuss over it?
I'm sure the real answer is "the writers couldn't be bothered to refer back the black powder/ledger storyline," but if we're to explain it logically within the story: maybe Robin has convincingly led them to believe he has destroyed it?
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Date: 2009-09-29 03:01 pm (UTC)Lol. Sorry, I just have to laugh when I think of Guy betraying HER. Just reward, considering how she's playing both sides. Odd how she thinks she's the only one who can work the betrayal angle and how it "doesn't count" when she does it.
What is interesting, too, is that when Marian expresses sympathy because the black powder fiasco is costing Guy "a dear friend," Guy quickly disabuses her of that notion and tells her that he's upset because the Sheriff "undercuts him at every opportunity." You'd think he would figure out that he would endear himself to her far more if he put on an act of being upset about his "dear friend," or even just did not contradict her supposition. But Guy is honest with her. I actually think that Guy always tries (even back in S1) to be honest with Marian, whenever possible. Also, he's a terrible liar (in the sense of being really bad at it :-D). See his extremely lame non-denial denial of his involvement in the Richard assassination attempt in the S1 finale.
Interesting thoughts. I looked at it a bit differently, though. It seemed like Guy was trying to play the tough guy again and pretend he didn't have any relationships with anybody. It might be misconstrued as weakness. That or he's in denial himself. But he does try to warn Lamb to keep his trap shut when Vasey's talking about using the powder. He also doesn't torture him (though Vasey does), even taking heat from Vasey for it. So I think there's something between him and Lamb.
Come now, we know Guy isn't aware enough to realized when he can SUBTLY use a situation to better his position with Maz! ;)
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Date: 2009-09-29 06:30 pm (UTC)Thanks for enjoying the legal discussion. It bores most people to tears, but I can't help it. ;)
On Gisborne, I thought I saw him flash a warning look to Lambert just before Lambert started laying down conditions. I have a feeling that Gisborne and Lambert have at least chatted informally about Lambert's reservations...and maybe Gisborne figured those reservations would magically disappear in the face of money and real patronage. In the alternative, it could be just as you suggest above, but Gisborne being friends with Lambert, he knows Lambert wouldn't want the black powder used as a weapon. *shrugs*
I actually think that Guy always tries (even back in S1) to be honest with Marian, whenever possible.
Yes, except when it really count. For example, if he'd told her at the end of S1 that the king was actually an impostor, she may not have married him, but she wouldn't have despised him quite so much either. He would have lost a bride, and gained a friend. But we'll save that for a later rewatch, shall we? ;)
maybe Robin has convincingly led them to believe he has destroyed it?
Maybe. I just think the Sheriff loses interest when all the black powder is destroyed at the end of the episode. He seems to be telling Gisborne to give up the project and move on (when he says "clean up your mess" or something).
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From:no subject
Date: 2009-09-29 09:30 am (UTC)At the end, around the campfire Allan says something along the lines of "Give it to me and I'll burn it for you," and then when Robin throws it in the fire and Djaq breaths a sigh of disappointment, Allan gives her a side-long glance.
Just TRY and convince me that Allan wasn't planning on taking the ledger and giving it back to her on the sly.
although, heh, I guess the blowing up of the castle in S3 is a sort of tribute to Allan then?
*sob* This episode, as you say, doesn't really add much EXCEPT to introduce the concept of black powder...but then why do that when 1) the woman who has ACTIVE KNOWLEDGE of the technique and the man who COMES UP WITH THE IDEA TO BLOW UP THE CASTLE aren't around to see this through to its logical conclusion. It's almost an insult that the castle was destroyed in that particular way without either Djaq or Allan around to see it happen. Instead Tuck asspulls the solution.
Head meets wall.
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Date: 2009-09-29 04:39 pm (UTC)Really? I'm going to have to watch the scene again, because I totally missed that! I always assumed that Allan (and probably Will) both knew she took the ledger, and that over time, Will got over whatever reservations he had re: black powder.
(I have to admit I tend not to notice the Allan/Djaq moments unless (a) they're so obvious I would have to be blind to miss them, or (b) they're OT3 moments also involving Will somehow).
It's almost an insult that the castle was destroyed in that particular way without either Djaq or Allan around to see it happen
Absolutely. There are so many S3 moments that are written so they absolutely HAVE to involve Will, Djaq or Allan, and yet they don't. Serious headdesk stuff! (My personal favorite is that arrow launcher thing...how they managed to make one without Will around is beyond me! *sigh*)
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Date: 2009-10-01 10:27 am (UTC)I'm surprised no one has commented on the rather sexualized overtones of the Guy/Sheriff scene where Vaisey tells Guy Lambert betrayed him to Robin Hood! It's totally played as a seduction scene, and Guy looks ... almost hypnotized?
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Date: 2009-10-01 02:12 pm (UTC)(It reminds me of that "gizzy, give us a kissy" bit from S2...)
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Date: 2009-10-01 08:17 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-10-02 06:10 am (UTC)I've been accumulating tons of rewatch stuff. There is a post at my journal here (http://mattyroh07.livejournal.com/15776.html), that's actually been sitting there for about a week, but I was waiting until this week to post it on the rewatch thread since it's about 1x07 through 1x09.
Also, look out for a *huge* icon post within the next two days (I have to do all my rewatch stuff on Friday before the new ep of Merlin on Saturday that inevitably distracts me.)
On a vaguely related note, I don't actually have too much to say about this episode, since it's not really one of my favorites. It's not as ridiculous as next week's, but not as epic as some of the other ones... And I always confuse this one with 1x07, because that's the one where Gisbourne is all like "loyalty! loyalty! Marian, you're not loyal to me! So marry me!" and then this ep is titled "A Thing or Two About Loyalty". *sigh*
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Date: 2009-10-02 06:18 am (UTC)There are eplosions in this ep and the scene that should have won Richard the award for Best Escape from a Flaming Explosion by an Actor in Front of a Bluescreen. That's what I like, along with Guy's hotness, in this ep. Otherwise the plot and motives mystify me.
Good grief, you know the TITLE? lol I only know two titles; the rest I go with either the season/ep # or the "it's the one where" description method.
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Date: 2009-10-03 09:01 pm (UTC)I just came in for the contracts thing. I read that and I kind of did a squee mixed with an eyeroll type thing. You know why LOL.
I absolutely love Much and Eve and I'm so sad they never brought her back. Maybe for good reason. Ooh I should really record today's episode...I haven't watched S3 at all properly.
Icon Motherload
Date: 2009-10-04 05:27 am (UTC)Discussion-y stuff
Date: 2009-10-04 06:31 am (UTC)No clue.
2. Did Gisborne anticipate the Sheriff would have less-than-noble uses for Lambert's invention, and keep that information from Lambert? Does he just assume that Lambert will just be happy with payment and principles be damned?
I think Gisbourne knows darned well that the Sheriff will want to use the black powder to blow up whatever he feels like, but knows that Lambert wouldn't go along with that idea, so he leaves out that minor detail. I kinda wonder what this says about Lambert & Guy's friendship that Guy just is using Lambert to get the black powder to earn the approval of the Sheriff.
3. Marian seems rather pleased with the fact that Guy has friends. Discuss.
I think it's just a matter that she's like "well, I'm stuck with him, so at least he better have some sort of social life and not just be the social loser."
4. Did Gisborne really intend to save Lambert, or was he just sort of telling Marian what she needed to hear?
I think he would have genuinely saved him if he could've, but I think he realized that it was going to be next to impossible with Vaizey around.
5. Why do Vaysey and Gisborne never attempt to get the ledger back from Robin Hood, after making an entire episode's worth of fuss over it?
Beats me.
By the time Vaysey and Gisborne find themselves another alchemist who will decode the fake ledger
They could get Djaq to do it! Oh, wait, that worked so well the last time...
Or maybe Lambert’s just not from Nottingham?
Maybe he's a friend of Guy's from the remote corner of France???
How come Will isn’t in the group of cloaked outlaws headed to town?
Yup, totally picked up on that. I was like "where's Will?" and then a minute later they explained it, and I was like, "convenient plot explanation".
Isn’t that a bit fortuitous though…that he already has a spy set up there, even though he has no way of knowing when (if ever) Much will get arrested?
I took it that the better part of a day had passed and so Vaizey would've had the time to make preparations, such as putting a spy at Bonchurch before he carried out his plan.
I note there’s really no reason for the hand either. Sufficient fanservice. The writers still thought at this point that they had to keep the fangirls happy. *note of sarcasm*
Also, I just noticed that Much and Eve have nearly the same hair and eye color. Hmm... I was noticing this with Guy and Marian for this whole ep.
"How is it our calling to judge what should or shouldn't exist as knowledge?"
I get the impression this is some sort of veiled modern-day political reference on the part of the writers, possibly with regards to the Internet, although Robin & Co. wouldn't think of it in that context. It definitely raises an intellectual/academic dilemma...
note that Will's signal is different from Allan's and Marian's!
I never noticed that!!! Must go watch that over...
*iz tired. will be back later to reply to comments*
A Thing or Two About Loyalty-Discussion Questions pt 1
Date: 2009-10-05 03:10 am (UTC)1. How did Guy and Lambert become friends, esp. as Lambert appears to have a scientific education, and Guy has never shown much interest in any aspect of a classical education?
No idea. LOL, how's that for a lame attempt at answering the questions? But seriously, I never could understand that. Lambert is spoken of specifically as Guy's friend numerous times by different people in the episode, yet there is never any indication as to how this rather unlikely friendship started. I would be inclined to think that Guy got wind of someone making great strides in the kind of scientific research that would prove useful to the Sheriff and then offered himself as a patron to Lambert. That would make sense given the incongruity of the relationship. But that's not how the relationship between the two is discussed in the episode. So I can only conclude that they're not just convenient acquaintances, but actually friends and happened to meet along life's bumpy road somehow. I couldn't begin to guess how. Both
2. Did Gisborne anticipate the Sheriff would have less-than-noble uses for Lambert's invention, and keep that information from Lambert? Does he just assume that Lambert will just be happy with payment and principles be damned?
Given the fact that Gisborne seems ready for Lambert's protests, I would have to say that he expected Lambert to put up a bit of an argument. I'm betting that the two men (Guy and Lambert) had discussed the possible uses beforehand and Lambert expressed reservations. But I think that Guy expected Lambert to agree eventually without too much fuss. However, I'm inclined to think that Guy commissioned the black powder for use in the mine, to increase productivity. Not as a weapon. Not that he couldn't anticipate the Sheriff having other uses for it, just that I think that Guy is the type who would be concerned with productivity and not necessarily with a new weapon.
A Thing or Two About Loyalty-Discussion Questions pt 2
Date: 2009-10-05 03:14 am (UTC)I think that she has resigned herself to having to become Lady Gisborne at some point in the future and I think that she desperately wants/needs to see something in Guy upon which she can build. I think that she needs to know that there's a good guy (or Good Guy) beneath the brooding fellow she thinks she knows. It really is too bad that he couldn't commit himself to being more of a team with Marian. If only he had chosen her even once over the Sheriff, things might have turned out so much differently. (And yes, there was the time he covered up the fact that she was the NWM. But I think that was far too little, far too late for Marian.) Of course, as badly as she seems to want him to prove something to her, she seems completely unconcerned with proving anything to him. She may have resigned herself to marrying him, but she certainly hasn't committed herself at all. She still runs to Robin for help and comfort. I'm not saying she should be committed to Guy...after all, she's marrying him because she's been told there is no alternative. I just think the double standard is odd.
4. Did Gisborne really intend to save Lambert, or was he just sort of telling Marian what she needed to hear?
I don't think he intended to save Lambert, but I don't think he was lying to Marian either. I think at that point he only cared about getting the ledger. I don't think he understood that Marian's thoughts and concerns were for anything other than him (Guy) and is frustrations. So I don't think he necessarily told her what she needed to hear as much as took her suggestion and used it to his advantage. He probably didn't even see it as lying to her.
5. Why do Vaysey and Gisborne never attempt to get the ledger back from Robin Hood, after making an entire episode's worth of fuss over it?
I've always thought the whole ledger plot was stupid. They had Djaq recover the ledger from the fire, they went to the trouble of showing us that Robin saw her and was pleased, then it was never mentioned again until someone thought to close out the storyline by having Djaq make some lame use of it at the end of S2. So maybe the writers had more planned for the ledger in future episodes but decided to scrap it instead? It was odd that no one ever mentioned it again until the pig head on Robin's birthday. ::shrugs::
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Date: 2009-10-09 11:12 pm (UTC)1. How did Guy and Lambert become friends, esp. as Lambert appears to have a scientific education, and Guy has never shown much interest in any aspect of a classical education?
I like the
2. Did Gisborne anticipate the Sheriff would have less-than-noble uses for Lambert's invention, and keep that information from Lambert? Does he just assume that Lambert will just be happy with payment and principles be damned?
Something I never considered before this rewatch: the little bundles of black powder that Lambert has under his shirt and uses to get away from the guards (and then Robin and John). They're separate from the barrel he's using for the demonstration, and they seem to have some kind of detonator included (is that even possible?? at least, I can't see him light them...) It's almost as if he came prepared for trouble - though whether that's the result of previous discussions with Guy, or just his own caution, I don't know.
I think Guy does have a bit of difficulty sometimes with anticipating that other people don't share his values (or lack thereof) - something that colours his interactions with Marian later on this episode as well.
3. Marian seems rather pleased with the fact that Guy has friends. Discuss.
Maybe she's hoping that he can have a weekly Boys' Poker Night, giving her time to keep up her Nightwatchman activities?
More seriously, I think you and
4. Did Gisborne really intend to save Lambert, or was he just sort of telling Marian what she needed to hear?
To his credit, I don't think he intended to deceive Marian. If that was his aim, presumably he would've then presented Lambert's death in a less damaging light...eg. "I was too late... Lambert is dead", implicitly blaming the sheriff and still getting some win points from Marian for good intentions... Rather than his "Loyalties are sometimes divided" line that makes it clear he *chose* not to save Lambert.
I think he probably intended to save Lambert when he was talking to Marian... but that resolve didn't last long against Vaysey's seductive (ew) logic. I get the sense that his words to her at the Council of Nobles are his attempt to make clear where he stands - that he is (generally) loyal to the Sheriff. But he vastly underestimates how negative her reaction will be, hence his attempt to backpedal and apologise later.
5. Why do Vaysey and Gisborne never attempt to get the ledger back from Robin Hood, after making an entire episode's worth of fuss over it?
Writer attention!fail. Plain and simple. At least the writers eventually followed up on the ledger plot with the gang, even if it was too little too late and left the unanswered question of where Will's reservations went. (I really like your axe argument - Djaq would so do that! And I remember "The Science of Falling Apart", and agree with you. It was/is a really good story, but I seem to remember Djaq doing a lot of crying and apologising and backing down, which doesn't mesh with my view of her either.)
no subject
Date: 2009-10-12 01:57 am (UTC)they seem to have some kind of detonator included (is that even possible?? at least, I can't see him light them...)
I'm thinking it works a bit like blasting caps or like flash powder. The impact from throwing the package of black powder acts as the ignition followed by the explosion. The thing is, the mixture required for that effect is different than black powder, so Lambert clearly has more than one formula worked out. That's why the ledger is way more important than he is. Or so I tell myself. ;)
But he vastly underestimates how negative her reaction will be, hence his attempt to backpedal and apologise later.
True, and I think this is because he vastly underestimates Marian generally. He thinks that her interests are the same as those of other women (to the extent he even knows what other women are interested in), and he doesn't realize that the whole Lambert thing was a test.
To be fair, I don't think Robin really gets her either, but she's in love with Robin, so she obviously has him on a longer rope.
(no subject)
From:no subject
Date: 2009-10-13 09:03 am (UTC)I think that Guy generally tries, pretty hard even, to be honest with Marian. Even his answer to her question about whether he tried to kill the King in the Holy Land was not an outright lie but a rather blatant non-denial denial ("You shouldn't believe rumors" etc.). And he even wanted to tell her about the King being a fake, but then wimped out.
no subject
Date: 2009-10-09 11:26 pm (UTC)Much/Eve are adorable, and I second the love for the singing-in-the-bath scene. Awwww. They are absolutely getting together after the series ends. End of story.
Eve's history is puzzling. I can see how it would make sense for the Sheriff to have informants in the villages, even if he wasn't necessarily planning this particular plan with Much. He doesn't seem to have a spy in say, Locksley, though, or surely it would have come up. Maybe the Locksley peasants are all such Robin fans
This would make a fascinating hypothetical problem on a law school contracts exam. *geeks out*
Please keep the law-geekery coming - it enables me to pretend I am studying while participating in this rewatch. ;-)
Also, semi-OT, but my family law final last year had (among several TV-related hypotheticals) a question about Marian and Guy (they kept the names the same, even!) and the whole marriage-under-false-pretences/duress situation from 1.13, asking what the position would be if she'd gone through with it. I wish I knew which of the lecturers set that question, though I have my suspicions.
Also, does Much volunteer because he thinks everyone else will too? I mean, yes, he’s more than willing to help Robin, but why on Earth would Much, the one outlaw who seems determined to have a full belly and get a good night’s sleep, actually volunteer to get arrested? It makes no sense to me.
This, paired with that scene in 1.05 where Much volunteers Allan to be the inside man in the slave cart and he doesn't protest at all, makes me think they've been engaged in a runnning series of bets of some kind, where the loser has to volunteer for the next horribly unpleasant mission.
Wouldn’t hanging Much have pretty much the same effect as hanging Tom-A-Dale in 1x07 did?
Maybe that's what the Sheriff is afraid of? Perhaps there was an unanticipated surge in outlaw popularity from that little stunt. Though I agree, the amount Vaysey seems to care about his
approval ratings is wildly inconsistent...
Next week, possibly the most cracktastic episode of the first series…complete with spandex-clad female ninjas, a bad case of PTSD and/or tattooing, geeky Will, patriotic Djaq, and Allan being just plain ol' scared.
Yay! Best thing about being horribly late to rewatch - it's nearly next week already. :D
no subject
Date: 2009-10-12 02:04 am (UTC)That's awesome! I only had two professors who used recognizable hypos and questions on finals, and they both used Shakespeare (although in one case, it was a combination of Shakespeare and Law & Order).
they've been engaged in a runnning series of bets of some kind, where the loser has to volunteer for the next horribly unpleasant mission.
Excellent theory. And you know what? I wonder if it's more of a bet between the actors as well. That would be hilarious. ;)
Perhaps there was an unanticipated surge in outlaw popularity from that little stunt.
Possible, although now you have me wondering if Vaysey runs a weekly opinion poll (whether the margin of error is +/- 100%)